I will start with listing a set of facts based on the Mishnayon/Gemaras in Pesachim and other places:
- All times listed in the Gemara are based on a 12 hour day 6 to 6 (שעות זמניות)
- The first Mishna in the 5th perek of Pesachim (48a) states that on Erev Pesach they would start bringing the תמיד של בין הערבים at 1:30PM (7.5 hours) and finish at 2:30PM (8.5)
- They started bringing the Korban Pesachs only after they finished with the Tamid, meaning they only started at 2:30PM
- Korbanos can only be brought until sunset which is 6PM (12 hours)
- The time alloted to bring all of the Korban Pesachs was 3.5 hours (2:30 PM until 6PM)
- The Mishna states that the Korban Pesach is brought in 3 groups
- The Gemara (Pesachim 64) states that they said Hallel while they were bringing the Korban pesachs and they never repeated Hallel more then 2 times
- The animals were suspended and flayed in the azara
- King Aggrippas counted the Korban Pesachs one year and came up with 1.2 million
- The Azara in the Beis Hamikdash was 135x187 Amos
- The entrance into the Azara was 10 Amos wide
According to the Gemara (9 above) they brought 1.2 million korbanos one year. That means that 1.2 million people needed to go into the Azarah with their sheep to sacrifice it. Lets do the math now.
- 3.5 hours is 210 minutes, 12600 seconds
- That is 95 korbanos per second, 5714 per minute. Note: To bring the Korban means to slaughter it, collect the blood, sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach, etc.
- The size of the Azara is approximately 25,000 square Amos
- Assuming a large Amah (2 feet) that is 50,000 square feet, Note: part of the azarah was the Kodesh Hakodashim which can not be entered and there are also the Keilim
- A loose crowd, one where each person is an arm's length from the body of his or her nearest neighbors, needs 10 square feet per person. A more tightly packed crowd fills 4.5 square feet per person. A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density would get about 2.5 square feet per person.
- Based on the above (5)
- Loose crowd - the maximum number of people is 5000, 3 groups would only get us to 15,000 people, we are 1.185 million people short
- A more tightly packed crowd - the maximum number of people is 11,111 3 groups would only get us to 33,333 people, we are 1.167 million people short
- A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density - the maximum number of people is 20,000 3 groups would only get us to 60,000 people, we are 1.14 million people short
- The entrance to the Azarah is 20 feet wide, meaning at most 8 can come in simultaneously. For 1.2 million to come in would require 150,000 rows of 8. This would require 12 rows to enter a second
- All the people who come in need to go out the same entrance
Even if we radically reduce the number of korbanos to 100,000 the numbers are still ridiculous
- That is 8 korbanos per second, 476 per minute. Note: To bring the Korban means to slaughter it, collect the blood, sprinkle the blood on the mizbeach
- Based on the crowd numbers above (5)
- Loose crowd - the maximum number of people is 5000, 3 groups would only get us to 15,000 people, we are 85,000 people short
- A more tightly packed crowd - the maximum number of people is 11,111 3 groups would only get us to 33,333 people, we are 67,000 people short
- A truly scary mob of mosh-pit density - the maximum number of people is 20,000 3 groups would only get us to 60,000 people, we are 40,000 people short
- The entrance to the Azarah is 20 feet wide, meaning at most 8 can come in simultaneously. For 1.2 million to come in would require 150,000 rows of 8. This would require 12 rows to enter a second
- All the people who come in need to go out the same entrance
Now if we think about Pesach in the Midbar things get even worse.
- The population was 600,000 men over the age of 20, giving us a population 2.5. -3 million people
- If we take teh Gemaras number of 10 people per Korban that would be about 250,000 korbanos
- The Mishkan was only 30x10 Amos with part of that the Kodesh Hakodashim.
- There were only 3 Kohanim to bring 250,000 korbanos
What we see from here is that there is no way that massive numbers of Jews could have ever brought the Korban Pesach. It is simply not feasible. The whole thing makes no sense at all. The Gemara describes what has to happen, yet pays no attention to the sheer impossibility of it all.
Some will answer, it was all miracles. There are 2 answers to this claim:
- The Gemara (Pesachim 64) has a dispute between Abaye and Rava if they relied on a miracle to lock the doors of the Azara or not. Abaye says yes and Rava says no. In all disputes between Abaye and Rava (except for 6) the Halacha is like Rava. If Rava says that we can't rely on this small miracle to close the doors, then certainly we can't rely on much greater miracles to allow us to bring the Korban Pesach
- There is absolutely no source for this. Nowhere does the Gemara say that the bringing of the Korban Pesach was miraculous. And in truth, these would be great miracles indeed.
The bottom line is that based on the numbers it is absolutely impossible for a large group of people to ever bring the Korban Pesach. The short time span plus the small Beis Hamikdash simply does not allow it to happen in any way shape or form.
Update 4/5
There are 2 more issues that I would like to raise:
- For every Korban that you are Makriv you need to burn the אימורים, the organs on the mizbeach until the next morning. To throw them all on the mizbeach requires 28 per second for the whole night. Of course after throwing on the first n the mizbeach would be covered and there is also the time needed for the אימורים to actually burn. Of course a pile of 1.2 million sets of organs would probably fill up a large part of the Azarah all by itself.
- In addition to the Korban Pesach everyone who comes to Yerushalayim is required to bring a korban reiyah (Olah) on the first day of the chag. While Korban Pesach applies to a Chabura these korbanot apply to every male, over the age of 13. This means many more Olas Reiyah were brought in comparison to Korban Pesach so if there 1.2 million Korban Pesachs there were at least 4-6 million olas reiyahs that needed to be brought on the first day of Pesach. Again it is absolutely impossible to bring that many Korbanos in a few hours. Additionally, you were supposed to bring Shalmei Simcha as well which adds even more korbanos.
Some will try to answer as follows. The Rambam paskens that many people can partake from one Korban Pesach.
יב [יד] עַד כַּמָּה נִמְנִין עַל הַפֶּסַח, עַד שֶׁיִּהְיֶה בּוֹ כַּזַּיִת לְכָל אֶחָד וְאֶחָד. וְנִמְנִין עָלָיו וּמוֹשְׁכִין אֶת יְדֵיהֶן מִמֶּנּוּ, עַד שֶׁיִּשָּׁחֵט; כֵּיוָן שֶׁנִּשְׁחַט--א ֵינוּ יָכוֹל לִמְשֹׁךְ אֶת יָדוֹ, שֶׁהֲרֵי נִשְׁחַט עָלָיו.
A sheep has approximately 30,000 כזיתים so for 2 million people we only would need about 60 sheep. However, there are insurmountable halachic and logistical problems with this idea.
1. the חבורה needs to eat it together in one house. How would thousands of people do that? In the time of the Beis Hamikdash and the mishkan a building that could hold thousands even hundreds did not exist. See rambam korban pesach chapter 9.
כָּל הָאוֹכֵל מִן הַפֶּסַח אֵינוֹ אוֹכֵל אֶלָּא בַּחֲבוּרָה אַחַת וְאֵין מוֹצִיאִין מִמֶּנּוּ מִן הַחֲבוּרָה שֶׁיֹּאכַל בָּהּ. וְהַמּוֹצִיא מִמֶּנּוּ כְּזַיִת בָּשָׂר מֵחֲבוּרָה לַחֲבוּרָה בְּלֵיל חֲמִשָּׁה עָשָׂר לוֹקֶה שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שמות יב מו) "לֹא תוֹצִיא מִן הַבַּיִת מִן הַבָּשָׂר חוּצָה". וְהוּא שֶׁיַּנִּיחֵנוּ בַּחוּץ. שֶׁהוֹצָאָה כְּתוּבָה בּוֹ כְּשַׁבָּת לְפִיכָךְ צָרִיךְ עֲקִירָה וְהַנָּחָה כְּהוֹצָאַת שַׁבָּת. וְאֵין מוֹצִיא אַחַר מוֹצִיא בְּפֶסַח שֶׁכֵּיוָן שֶׁהוֹצִיאוֹ הָרִאשׁוֹן נִפְסַל. מִן הָאֲגַף וּלְפָנִים כִּלְפָנִים מִן הָאֲגַף וְלַחוּץ כְּלַחוּץ וְהָאֲגַף עַצְמוֹ שֶׁהוּא עֳבִי הַפֶּתַח כְּלַחוּץ. הַחַלּוֹנוֹת וָעֳבִי הַכְּתָלִים כִּלְפָנִים. הַגַּגִּים וְהָעֲלִיּוֹת אֵינָן בִּכְלַל הַבַּיִת:
So tell me where would 30,000 be able to eat the korban pesach in one house? Where would even 3000 people do it? Therefore the practical upper limit for a Chabura is tens of people.
כָּל הָאוֹכֵל מִן הַפֶּסַח אֵינוֹ אוֹכֵל אֶלָּא בַּחֲבוּרָה אַחַת וְאֵין מוֹצִיאִין מִמֶּנּוּ מִן הַחֲבוּרָה שֶׁיֹּאכַל בָּהּ. וְהַמּוֹצִיא מִמֶּנּוּ כְּזַיִת בָּשָׂר מֵחֲבוּרָה לַחֲבוּרָה בְּלֵיל חֲמִשָּׁה עָשָׂר לוֹקֶה שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר (שמות יב מו) "לֹא תוֹצִיא מִן הַבַּיִת מִן הַבָּשָׂר חוּצָה". וְהוּא שֶׁיַּנִּיחֵנוּ
So tell me where would 30,000 be able to eat the korban pesach in one house? Where would even 3000 people do it? Therefore the practical upper limit for a Chabura is tens of people.
2. The logistical problem is also insurmountable. Who is butchering the sheep into 30,000 kezaysim? How long does that take? And then you have to distribute the 30,000 kezaysim where and how would that be done in the small amount of time allotted?
I think you need to check some of your figures.
ReplyDelete-Where exactly was the korban pesach slaughtered? Your figure of 25k square amos seems to assume the main azarah only. Is this correct? Could it have been slaughtered in the ezras noshim? Even if not, could the owners not be standing in the ezras noshim? Please could you source this?
-If an amah is 2 foot then a square amah is 4 square foot (2x2), so all of your area calculations are off by a factor of 2.
-What is the point of number of korbonos per minute / second? They were surely not offered one at a time. Anyone was able to slaughter their own (a yisroel is kosher for shechita), and all you needed was one kohen to catch some of the blood and throw some on the mizbeiach (I believe there were some sort of human chains to get this done)
-Your 100,000 calculation contains a repeat of the 1.2 million calculation for point 3.
The Korban Pesach was slaughtered in the Azara. It could not be slaughtered in teh Ezras Nashim, this is a basic din of korbanos that everything needs to be done in the Azara.
ReplyDeleteOf course they were done in parallel, my point is that that there needed to be 95 korbanos done in parallel every second, not possible.
Yes a Yisroel can schecht, but who said that every Yisroel that comes to bring a Korban Pesach knows how to shecht and can do it quickly and efficiently
Even if I made a mistake in the size of the bottok line is that the Beis Hamikdash was a relatively small area that could not possibly hold the number of people required.
Nowadays there are huge crowds that come to the old city of
ReplyDeleteJerusalem during the days of slichot and chol hamoed. There
is a guard at the gates into the old city who counts people coming in. In the
area of the kotel frequently one cant move. The maximum number of people allowed in the Kotel Plaza is 60,000
All this with a larger area than the azarah, without animals, an alter teh kodesh hakodashim which by itself was 20x20 amah
The simplest answer, and one supported by archeology, is that then, as now, most people weren't ultra-Orthodox. (Anachronistic, but you know what I mean.) There were other Temples, most notably at Dan and Bethel. There were hilltop shrines. Until Yeshiyahu, none of these were ever touched, even by the YHWHist reformer kings. There would have been ample infrastructure for everyone to bring a korban.
ReplyDeleteEven if we ignore those, it simply isn't realistic to expect that everyone made the journey to Yerushalayim three times a year. The cost would have been staggering. I imagine it was something like the Muslim Haj is today, something that most people do once in a lifetime, unless you're rich or happen to live nearby.
Then there's the little detail that Yeshayahu, or at least the Dueteronimist Kohanim whose agenda he supported, invented Pesach:
And the king commanded all the people, "Keep the passover to the LORD your God, as it is written in this book of the covenant." For no such passover had been kept since the days of the judges who judged Israel, or during all the days of the kings of Israel or of the kings of Judah; but in the eighteenth year of King Josiah this passsover was kept to the LORD in Jerusalem. (2 KINGS 23:21-23)
In addition, there's also an economic argument of impossibility. Cows were expensive. Now I'm no expert on animal husbandry statistics in ancient times. But I'm guessing that slaughtering one cow per person per year was just not feasible. Certainly only the richest could afford it.
ReplyDeleteTo try and actually ground this, I was able to google books a section of "Animal husbandry in Ancient Israel: A zooarchaeological Perspective on Livestock Exploitation, Herd Management and Economic Strategies"
by Aharon Sasson.
He writes, "In sum, a relatively small number of cattle was required for supporting full-scale dry farming and producing the required grains for the inhabitants. The estimate coincides with figures presented by Rosen (B. Rosen 1994), in an article discussing the agriculture of the Iron Age. According to Rosen, a site of 100 inhabitants required 8 to 12 heads of cattle to maintain the agricultural tasks. He also noted that around 300 sheep were required for providing the high value proteins and calories essential for the inhabitants. Rosen concluded: 'in this model the ratio fo bovines to ovines is about 1:20'" Estimates a bit later up the cattle per 100 residents to 18, and would provide 22% of the meat requirements of the society, assuming you slaughtered them after they no longer could work. Evidence from archaeology indicates that goats far outnumbered cattle (in 6:1 ratios) and were the primary source of meat.
This is probably as far as I want to dig into this...
The fact that hundreds of thousands of yeshiva students & their rabbeim can swallow this stuff wholesale without raising any questions points to a far greater miracle than would be needed to satisfy all the korban pesach requirments, and yet, 'nebachdike' skeptics like yourself still harbor doubts about the koach hatoirah..
ReplyDeleteSuch is the koach hatoirah..
AK
ReplyDeleteWhat is the need for a cow per year? The korbon pesach was a sheep/goat
Your math problem: only one person from each group needed to accompany the lamb to the Temple.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteShaindel Grossman
ReplyDeleteYes but the Gemara stated that there were 1.2 million lambs slaughtered one year. That means 1.2 million people.
Shaindel Grossman
ReplyDeleteYes but the Gemara stated that there were 1.2 million lambs slaughtered one year. That means 1.2 million people.
Chazal's numbers are always exaggerated
ReplyDelete(See mesechet gottin where around a billion people get exiled from Yerushalayim)